Only hours after a tumultuous debate in the US dominated by insults and diatribes, New Zealand's major political leaders took the spotlight in a dynamic contest of ideas, sparring on some issues and agreeing on others.
Newshub's Leaders Debate on Wednesday night presented Jacinda Ardern and Judith Collins their first opportunity to go head-to-head in front of a socially-distanced live crowd after Auckland last week transitioned to COVID-19 alert level 2.
With the audience providing their reaction to comments throughout the debate, the leaders brought an energy lacking in their first televised contest last week, frequently critiquing the other's policy or boasting about their own.
And while there was plenty of talking over each other and political jabs, the debate also didn't derail into what viewers of the Donald Trump and Joe Biden event witnessed.
At the end of it, neither the Labour leader nor the National leader were anointing themselves the winners. Instead, Ardern said she would leave it up to viewers to decide while Collins - although remarking she thought she performed well - believed politics was the ultimate victor.
Leadership on COVID
Much of the 90-minute debate revolved around Collins and Ardern's leadership and the decisions they would need to make if elected Prime Minister post-October 17.
A hypothetical question was posed to them by moderator Patrick Gower: It is Christmas Eve and Director-General of Health Dr Ashley Bloomfield tells you there is community transmission in Christchurch similar to the Auckland outbreak in August. What do you do?
Collins said Christchurch would clearly need to be locked down and it would be important to establish how far the virus had spread.
"You do have to put people's health first, but at the same time, if your border protection agency is working properly, you are doing the testing at the border, you test people before they get on a plane, you shouldn't actually have to have a lockdown because you shouldn't have it in the community," Collins said.
Ardern replied to the question by leaning on her experience running Cabinet and receiving Dr Bloomfield's advice during the August outbreak.
"I would do exactly what I did in the real life scenario," she said. "I would move to a lockdown - a short one - so we could assess the situation and assess whether or not we needed to lengthen the time."
That would mean alert level 3 in Christchurch and alert level 2 across the rest of the country. Ardern said delaying decisions can lead to catastrophic events and, therefore, possibly longer lockdowns.
"What I don't want is a situation where if we make the wrong decisions, that we have a situation where families don't spend time together at all because they lose their loved ones. That is the gravity of these situations that we as a Government have had to make."
The National Party leader insisted, however, that putting restrictions on the wider country would severely affect the country's economy. In such a scenario, she would keep the North Island open "unless we had a reason otherwise".
But advice Ardern said she's received says there is a high chance of spread outside of a city if the source's outbreak hasn't been identified. Making a decision based on public pressure would "put people at risk", she said.
Cannabis
COVID-19 wasn't the only topic in the debate in which big calls were discussed.
Ardern said she would move to declare a climate emergency if re-elected and she also said the now-controversial decision to grant infrastructure funding to a private Green School was the right thing to do, something that surprised Collins.
But one issue she wasn't revealing her hand on was cannabis.
Ardern told Gower that she took "leadership on issues every single day of the week", but has previously refused to provide a clear stance on how she will vote in the upcoming cannabis legalisation referendum.
That continued on Wednesday night.
"I made a clear decision that I want the public of New Zealand to decide this and I want this not to be about politics," Ardern said.
After Gower asked the question again, Ardern said she would reveal her answer following the election.
"I want the public to decide and I want them to have faith that whatever they decide, I'll implement. I am not clear if that will be the case under Judith Collins," the Labour leader said.
Collins said Ardern didn't have the right to keep silent on her vote, pointing out that she has made her stance on the euthansia referendum clear.
"New Zealanders deserve an answer and they deserve a straight answer. Not waffle."
One nugget to come from the questioning, however, was that Ardern did smoke cannabis "a long time ago". While Ardern told reporters later in the evening she didn't consider that a revelation, it's the most frank she's been on the issue, previously only saying that she was raised Mormon and "then I was not Mormon".
Collins hasn't smoked cannabis.
Deputy Prime Ministers
Both politicians vying to lead the country were asked if New Zealand's current deputy leader, Winston Peters, was "irrelevant".
Peters' party, New Zealand First, has been consistently polling below the 5 percent threshold, meaning without an electorate seat, it won't be returning to Parliament if it sees similar results after the election.
Collins said he was irrelevant, while Ardern said it would be a "disservice" to describe her current 2IC in that way. She said it was ultimately up to the voters to decide.
The National Party has previously ruled out working with New Zealand First after the election. Collins was asked if, by "some miracle", Peters returned to Parliament, was there any chance National could work with him.
"As a Christian, I do actually believe in miracles, but I tell you what, he ain't going to be one of them," she said to laughter from the audience.
So who could be the Deputy Prime Minister after the election?
Ardern wouldn't recommend a co-deputy Prime Ministership job share scheme for the Greens' Marama Davidson and James Shaw, should they and Labour enter a coalition.
"I don't see job sharing arrangements in politics working particularly well," Ardern said.
Collins said Act's David Seymour would be an "excellent" Deputy Prime Minister, to which Ardern let out, "Jeepers".
Consensus from the leaders
Illustrating the stark contrast between the US and NZ debates was the fact that amid the often-fiery back and forth some topics saw between Ardern and Collins, there was also agreement.
Both leaders told moderator Gower it wasn't time to rename New Zealand Aotearoa, each backed a potential investigation into Pharmac's operations, and they supported ensuring transgender people have access to gender-netural toilets at school.
Collins and Ardern are also in favour of New Zealand having a four-year Government term.
"We might be able to do that," Ardern said, gesturing to Collins, to which the National leader responded, "Right, let's do it".
"We don't want to see you for four years," Ardern then jokingly remarked to Gower, receiving chuckles from everyone in the Q Theatre, including Collins.
Two referendums in 1967 and 1990 - both prior to MMP - saw Kiwis dismiss the idea, but it was supported by a report out of Victoria University last year saying the current set up doesn't adequately allow for long-term issues to be tackled.
Speaking to reporters after the debate, Ardern acknowledged the potential "opening" for a four-year term.
"I think it probably does have reasonably wide support. So, look, a take home from today. Let's see.
"If the New Zealand public feel the same way, then that should be a debate before Parliament," the Labour leader said.
She said New Zealanders were now more accustomed to the MMP system so they may feel more comfortable about longer terms.
Collins said the change should be looked at if there were enough votes in Parliament, but believed constitutional issues like it required public backing.
"All over the country we get asked about this, and I am sure that Ms Ardern has as well and lots of politicians get asked it. People realise three years is a very short time for Parliament," said the National leader.
"Not only does it cost a lot of extra money to have elections every three years rather than four, but actually most other jurisdictions now have moved to a four-year term. I personally think five years is too long, I think four years is [better]."
Earning one of the biggest laughs of the night from the crowd, was the leaders' agreement that Phil Twyford was an "asset". Twyford is the Labour Minister who presided over the Auckland light rail and KiwiBuild programmes, neither of which were fulfilled as promised.
He lost the housing portfolio to Megan Woods last year.
"He's still in my Cabinet. He paid a price.
"If he is in my Cabinet, then yes, he has qualities that make him an asset," Ardern said straight-faced.
Collins, National's housing spokesperson during Twyford's time overseeing KiwiBuild, said he was her asset and Ardern's "liability".
But the pair didn't see eye-to-eye on National's finance spokesperson Paul Goldsmith, with Collins calling him an asset and Ardern saying National's alternative budget was a liability.
After it was unveiled in September, it emerged National's economic plan had a fiscal hole. It was initially found that the party used old figures to calculate savings from suspending payments to the SuperFund, which Goldsmith admitted to, but Newshub later revealed National also had its capital allowance numbers wrong.
There have since been other issues pointed out with the plan, which National has rejected.
The wage subsidy
Early in the debate, the National and Labour leaders were asked whether it was fair that large companies had taken big chunks of taxpayers' cash through the wage subsidy only to lay off staff and post profits.
Ardern said it wasn't and although it may have been "within the rules to do what these companies are doing, it doesn't mean it's in the spirit of fairness".
National's leader said if people didn't need the money, they shouldn't have taken it.
"But then again, the rules should have been more carefully put in place. But they should pay it back.
"It's not fair," Collins said.
The response from each received claps from the audience.
To acquire the original wage subsidy, a business needed to show an at least 30 percent decline in actual or projected revenue over a month compared to the same time period last year.
Finance Minister Grant Robertson has described it as a "high-trust model" designed to get money to businesses as quickly as possible. Many businesses, after taking the subsidy, realised their downturn wasn't as severe as expected and voluntarily paid some money back.
Collins said if she was in Government, she would look for ways to claw back the cash from businesses she believed had unfairly taken it. She suggested a law change may be necessary.
Ardern wouldn't do the same, but said officials were "pursuing those who may have acted outside the law".
"That's why I said it was a moral issue. Some of these companies followed the rule, they just didn't follow the spirit of fairness," the Labour leader said.
How'd they go?
At the end of the debate, Ardern and Collins joined Newshub Political Editor Tova O'Brien to go over how they believed they performed just 17 days out from the election.
Neither were willing to call themselves the winner.
"I never declare. For me, it is all going to come down to, a viewer watching is going to make that judgement," Ardern told O'Brien.
The Labour leader made more jabs at Collins on Wednesday night than she did in last week's televised debate, but she said she prefers less "cross-over".
"I always prefer a debate where there is a bit more room for people to make their view known, so I always prefer a debate where there is a little bit less cross-over in our answers. That's just me. That's how I do politics," she said.
"I had to make a call. Either sit back and try and have that dialogue, or make the point. I chose to make the point."
Speaking to O'Brien, Collins wouldn't outright say she took the night, but was still pleased with her efforts.
"I felt very good, but I also thought it was a much more robust debate tonight, much more energy. I thought I did well, but I also think too, the big winner tonight was politics," she said.
The National leader said people should have "good, robust politics", but it doesn't need to be a "bloodsport". She said she just acted herself through it.
Newshub's expert panel gave an edge to Collins. The Hui host Mihingarangi Forbes called it a tie, but public relations expert and commentator Trish Sherson said Collins was "absolutely revelling in" the debate forum and she was the night's winner.
Commentator Josie Pagani said the more energetic debate was good for politics.
"We want it to be a bit of a bloodsport. We want to leave some blood and sweat on the table. We want them to take some risks and stand for something," she said.
"In that respect, they both came out absolutely batting out of the changing rooms. They were out to be aggressive, both of them.
"In the end, I think that Judith had it just ahead of Jacinda."
But there were also a few clangers. The experts were critical of Ardern's backing of the Green School funding, Collins' "wonky and unnecessary" praise of Trump for not rushing into war in the Middle East, and Ardern's lack of resolution at Ihumātao.
To watch the full debate, including questions on everything from Māori health to superannuation, click here.
