Labour leader Chris Hipkins and National leader Christopher Luxon will on Tuesday night go head-to-head in the first televised leaders debate of the election season.
From 7pm, the two leaders will face off in the TVNZ election debate, with full updates provided by Newshub throughout the night. Following the debate, at 8:30pm, Newshub will get reaction from Hipkins and Luxon, with their assessment of how they went.
The event comes as Labour struggles in the polls, with the political party receiving just 26.8 percent in the latest Newshub-Reid Research poll. That compares with National's 40.9 percent. Hipkins and Luxon were tied on the preferred-Prime Minister rankings.
Newshub's own live election debate with the two leaders will be held at 7pm on September 27, moderated by Patrick Gower, with post-debate analysis led by Newshub Political Editor Jenna Lynch.
8:30pm - That's the end of the debate. The leaders' media standup is next.
8:25pm - Jessica Mutch McKay brings up the children marching in the street over climate change and asks both leaders what they're personally doing to reduce their footprint.
Luxon says his family embraced recycling "some time ago" and "we work quite hard at that".
Hipkins says he has an EV and he's a recycler too.
8:24pm - Hipkins is questioned if he's moving fast enough on climate change. He says we need to move with more urgency.
"Christopher and the National Party want to kick out decisions around agriculture emissions until the next decade," he said. "I don't think we can afford to wait that long."
But Luxon says he is taking it seriously but there's a dilemma - our farmers feed 40m people around the world and if you cut their numbers, their production goes overseas to less-efficient farmers. Hipkins says this isn't true. He accused Luxon of having no way of delivering on his cuts.
"We don't need the Government to fund an electric vehicle charging network, because if we have the update of EVs we have at the moment the market will deliver that," he says.
8:22pm - Both leaders say there is "absolutely" a climate emergency. Hipkins says we have to focus on getting our emissions down as fast as possible - however he accuses National of wanting to cut what the Government is currently doing to tackle our emissions.
Luxon says National is committed to the goals but isn't committed to the way of delivering them. "We're going to do them differently," he says. He says National is going to double the amount of renewable electricity so we can make the transition in transport and manufacturing.
"We have an abundant supply of wind, geothermal and solar energy in this country," he says. "We are consenting them too slowly."
Hipkins brings up National's policy of bringing back oil and gas exploration - Luxon says we should be "pragmatic" and accuses Labour of importing a decade's worth coal in 2021 "so we actually need gas as a transitory energy source".
8:12pm - One in three Kiwi households are renters, so what will the leaders do?
Hipkins says we need to build our way out of the housing crisis. He concedes KiwiBuild was an "unrealistic promise" but says we need to be a nation of homeowners, not a nation of renters, and attacks National over how it sold off state houses.
Luxon says Labour has been an "abject failure" on housing, and we need to increase supply and build more houses. He runs through National's housing policies.
The debate turns to landlords, with Hipkins saying National's policies will see millions spent on tax breaks for landlords.
Hipkins says making their lives better isn't the way to go at the moment, while Luxon insists the majority of landlords are mum and dad investors - not evil property speculators.
Hipkins says there are more and more "mega landlords" in New Zealand and this isn't the way to go. We need to build more houses, and we need more affordable state house rentals, he says.
8:07pm - Another quick-fire question round:
- Both are yes to bilingual road signs
- Luxon opposes renaming NZ to Aotearoa while Hipkins says he has no problem with it
- Both yes to four-year term
- Neither agree with a wealth tax or tax on vacant homes
- Both purchased their first home around the age of 24
- Both think the issue of transgender people participating in sport should be left to sporting bodies
8:00pm - This leads to more questions on co-governance. Luxon says there was a good understanding of what this meant under the last National Government - in the context of Treaty settlements, the local management of natural resources with local iwi and that worked "exceptionally well". He says National will continue to do that , however the issue is co-governance has been taken out of that context and put into the delivery of national public services and goods.
"We think we are one country, we have one system of public services, they're made available to people on the basis of their needs and we're all one-person, one vote, equal citizenship," he says.
He doesn't support "two separate systems", but wants to strengthen relations with iwi.
Hipkins says co-governance means shared decision-making and "we are strongest as a country when we are working together".
7:55pm - Things get heated as the debate switches to health. Question is should Maori /Pasifika should be prioritised over other patients with similar conditions as they die seven years earlier.
Hipkins says that Maori and Pacific peoples wait longer for health care than other NZers and says that the health system is doing something about this is a good thing.
"Maori and Pacific New Zealanders should not be discriminated against by the health system, which is clear evidence they have been in the past," he says.
He accuses the political parties that oppose Labour's attempts of closing the gaps of "race-baiting politics".
Luxon doesn't think services should be delivered based on race - instead it should be through a lens of need.
"The prioritisation and delivery of public services should always be on the basis of need not ethnicity," he says.
Luxon doesn't think the Maori Health Authority (MHA) is a good example of cogovernance - and promises it will be scrapped.
"It's creating another bureaucracy," he says.
But Hipkins says National used to support a by-Maori, for-Maori approach in things like health and education and that's what the MHA is.
"It's allowing Maori to have control over their own health care. There's nothing to be afraid of for non-Maori if we do that."
7:51pm - The topic switches to dental, starting with an expert saying sugar is a key driver behind our "appalling" oral health problems. He wants to know what they'll do about the "sugar epidemic" in our communities.
So what about a sugar tax or banning fizzy drink?
Luxon doesn't think we need a ban on sugar in schools and wants education instead.
Hipkins thinks fizzy drinks should be banned in secondary schools, like they already are in primary schools, and Labour will do this if reelected.
On free dental, Luxon said there are other "higher priorities" in our health care system.
7:50pm - Mental health. Luxon wants a dedicated Minister of Mental Health and have mental health targets. He acknowledges workforce shortages but says what we can do is empower community organisations like Gumboot Friday.
Jessica Mutch McKay asks Hipkins why after spending $1.9b on mental health, it doesn't seem to have made a difference.
"We're building a new mental health system from the ground up," Hipkins explains. "We've been putting counsellors in school. We've got programmes like Mana Ake in schools targetting our young people that are delivering real outcomes. Access and choice, which means you can go to your GP and get a referral to a free mental health counselling session, that's delivered over a million counselling sessions.
"Of course it took too long but you can't build something out of nothing. It takes time to build these systems."
7:48pm - On the topic of health, Luxon says National will increase spending on health and education "each and every year". He thinks it's "quite outrageous" Hipkins doesn't think the health system is in a crisis.
Hipkins guarantees there will be no cuts to health and blames the last National Government for running health down.
Australia is taking our health professionals - what will Hipkins do? He says we need to train more and pay them more.
Luxon says Kiwi medical students are forced to study in Australia because they couldn't get into NZ medical schools. He says National will open a third medical school at the University of Waikato - which Labour should have done six years ago - and increase places in current programmes.
He's also supportive of paying them more and wants to fund community organisations more.
However Hipkins says it will take too long to build a new medical school and he will increase places in our current two schools.
7:40pm - Quick fire questions to both leaders:
- Both have had speeding tickets
- Both don't think it's time to be a republic
- Both supported a new flag
- On compulsory Te Reo in schools, Hipkins thinks Te Reo should be "universal" while Luxon says there should be more Te Reo teachers
- Both think we should keep banning nuclear-powered ships
- Both think cannabis shouldn't be decriminalised
- Both think vapes shouldn't be prescription only
- Is the health system broken? No says Hipkins. Yes says Luxon
7:34pm - Luxon says he doesn't feel safe walking around Auckland at night.
Labour has had six years to fix crime, he says, and has instead been soft on crime and focused on reducing the prison population by 30 percent. But there hasn't been a 30 percent reduction in crime, he notes.
Luxon then lists stats on gang membership, violent crime and ram-raids and says we don't have to accept that in New Zealand.
Hipkins says Luxon hasn't offered any solutions and points to Labour's circuit-breaker initiative that stops young people from reoffending.
"Three-quarters of the young offenders that have been referred to that haven't gone on to re-offend. I want to turn their lives around so they're not on the cycle of criminal offending that they are on at the moment," Hipkins says.
"We've got to turn these kids' lives around. If we want less crime we've got to have less criminals in the first place. We've got to break that cycle."
Luxon says we need to tackle gangs instead of "funding the gangs".
"You gave them funding, $2.7m to do meth rehab, I don't think that's a good idea," Luxon tells Hipkins.
He says National will ban gang patches in public places, give police dispersal powers, get tough on the illegal guns they have, make being a gang member an aggravated factor in sentencing, and limit judges' discretion in sentencing.
Questioning turns to National's boot-camp proposal and whether they work.
Hipkins says they have an 80 percent failure rate, while Labour's policies have an 80 percent success rate.
Luxon says National can make them work and he's "not prepared to write them [the children] off".
7:27pm - We're into questions about coalition partners.
Hipkins jabs at a possible NZ First-ACT-National coalition, saying Winston Peters and David Seymour would be "running circles" around Luxon.
"Winston Peters brings chaos wherever he goes," he says. "I've ruled out working with Winston Peters because stable Government does not come from working with Winston Peters."
Luxon retorts by saying there would be coalition of chaos between Labour, the Greens, the Maori Party and "the gangs".
7:25pm - What would happen if China invaded Taiwan? Hipkins dodges by saying we shouldn't talk about hypotheticals like this - Luxon agrees we shouldn't speculate.
7:24pm - Big question - does Luxon think Labour was right to lock NZ down for as long as it did? He says he thinks the first part of the response went well, but it took too long to come out of this.
"Other countries came out of it much quicker from us, got the jump on us and as a result that's what we needed to do as well," he says.
Hipkins says other countries came out of COVID restrictions faster because they had already had COVID sweep through their community - whereas we had a community that was unvaccinated and had no COVID exposure, and we needed to tread carefully and protect our vulnerable.
In hindsight there are many things you'd do differently but you don't get the benefit of hindsight when you're in Government, he said, and we should be proud of having one of the lowest COVID death rates in the world.
7:15pm - After a short break both leaders are asked what they admire about each other.
Hipkins says he respects Luxon's commitment to his family, and taking on the role as leader of the Opposition, while Luxon says he respects Hipkins for taking on the job as prime minister.
7:14pm - The topic of the price of fuel comes up.
Luxon said they would not increase the fuel tax in the first term, however Hipkins goes on the attack, saying National's carbon policies could see fuel increase by 40 cents per litre.
7:13pm - On their plans to grow the economy, Hipkins said we need to grow wages, grow jobs, boost exports and be one of the "cleanest greenest economies in the world".
Luxon lists his five-point plan in response - saying he wants NZ to be the most advanced small country on earth.
His ideas include making sure we have a world-class education system, invest in infrastructure, ensure we embrace technology, skills, science, and have strong international connections to the world.
7:10pm - They're questioned over how they would help 'Sky' - a waitress, who wants to know if they think the rich and wealthy should have any sort of responsibility when it comes to poverty and inequality - and if so what would that look like.
"Absolutely," Hipkins says, adding "we should all contribute our fair share of tax". He says this is why he doesn't think he and Luxon need a tax cut right now.
Hipkins is clear - he won't introduce a wealth tax or a capital gains tax. He would be personally be comfortable paying for a capital gains tax but there isn't the public or political support for it - and it takes 10 years before it makes significant revenue.
Luxon says to Sky "help is on the way" and the best way to help people is to deliver tax relief.
Is the tax system fair?
"What's not fair is that people like Skye... aren't getting any tax relief," Luxon says. "They are waking up every day, going to work, slogging their guts out, doing one or two jobs, and still can't get ahead. This has to be a country where the promise of New Zealand is if you work hard in the best country on earth you deserve to get ahead."
7:05pm - The leaders are getting heated as they go head-to-head on their plans for tax relief for Kiwis.
Luxon says he will help low and middle-income NZers because "they deserve a break". He backs his plan - which would cost $15b - saying he would cut wasteful spending and raise new sources of revenue.
Hipkins fires back by saying Labour is "winning the battle on inflation", adding "National's tax cuts would make things worse".
"They want to cut all of the targeted supports we're putting in place to support Kiwis with the cost of living," he says, adding many people won't benefit from National's tax cuts.
Luxon says his tax plan is better than "a couple of cents off your beans and carrots" and none of the GST coming off fresh fruit and veggies will go to customers.
Hipkins says Kiwis are paying too much at the supermarket because there isn't enough competition, which is why Labour's established a Grocery Commissioner.
He says National's tax plan doesn't add up, and National can't say how they're going to pay for it.
7:02pm - Each leader has 30 seconds to make their pitch. Hipkins says you don't take our country forward by winding things back, you don't tackle a climate change crisis by doing nothing, you don't make housing affordable by bringing back foreign millionaires, you don't help with the cost of living by cutting jobs and critical public services. His plan is to get inflation down and keep helping Kiwis with the cost of living.
"I'm not promising perfection, but I will be honest with you and I will have your back," he says.
Luxon responds by saying this country is going backwards and we know it.
"This election is all about the economy and which party can rebuild it and reduce the cost of living," he says. "We can be so much better. This election you can vote for change. For fixing the economy and bringing down the cost of living, for restoring law and order and delivering better health and education."
7:00pm - Here we go! Hipkins and Luxon are at their podiums and their debate is about to start.
6:48pm - Chris Hipkins and Christopher Luxon have each just walked though the TVNZ foyer on their way into the studio. Both men appeared confident as they strolled through.
6:40pm - National leader Christopher Luxon has fired off a social media video on the way to face Chris Hipkins.
"On the way to the debate. Let's get our country back on track," he told the camera.
6:20pm - Notorious political protester Karl Mokaraka has been spotted near the debate venue.
Mokaraka said he intends to stay quiet tonight and let democracy do its thing.
5:20pm - Labour's Hipkins has had to intervene over another inaccurate post by one of his MPs.
Labour has been underfire throughout the campaign for numerous examples of its MPs spreading incorrect information.
He told reporters on Tuesday morning that he had asked Michael Wood to correct a statement he made on Facebook, which said National would abolish the winter energy payment, something the party has been clear it won't do.
"On that particular post, I have spoken to Michael Wood this morning and said I expect him to correct it," Hipkins said.
5pm - We are less than a month out from the election, which will be held on October 14.
But how does New Zealand's election system work? What is MMP? How is a Government formed?
If you have these questions, here's a guide to the election that may help you out.
4:45pm - Both political leaders are setting expectations before their showdown on Tuesday night.
Earlier, Hipkins confessed to having a "weakness" - "I don't have a photographic memory when it comes to facts and figures".
"I have been caught out on this before. I will spend a bit of time trying to refresh my memory on those things."
He said he hoped the public would "focus on the substance of the debate rather than the sport of it".
"I acknowledge that everybody these days seems to treat politics like a sport... There's a lot of substance that I think is important," Hipkins said. "I know there's a big undecided vote out there at the moment. So, there'll be people tuning in tonight to make up their minds about how they're going to vote."
Meanwhile, Luxon, who has been calling Hipkins a "champion" debater in recent days, said he has been doing preparations in the evenings over recent days.
"This whole process of being leader of the Opposition is probably the longest job interview I have ever gone through and clearly the debate is a big part of that or an important part of it. I have never done one before, I'm looking forward to it, I will do my best. I will have a lot of fun along the way."
Luxon hoped it would be a "contest of ideas" and people would get a sense of the difference between the parties.
4:30pm - Kia ora, good afternoon, and welcome to Newshub's live updates of the first televised leaders debate of the 2023 election season.
At 7pm, Labour's Chris Hipkins and National's Christopher Luxon will go head-to-head over 90 minutes at TVNZ's election debate.
It will be the leaders' first debate against each other ahead of the October 14 election.
Newshub will have live updates throughout the evening, including after the debate when the leaders will address media.
