As thousands around the world call for the removal of statues linked to colonialism, the slave trade and racism, the descendant of an infamous Confederate commander is supporting his relative's monument being pulled down.
Following the death of Africa-American man George Floyd, which happened while he was being arrested by police, protests sprung up rallying against police brutality and racism. Off the back of that there has also been calls for statues of individuals linked to the legacies of the slave trade and oppression to come down.
Some public officials in the United States are on board with the idea, including Virginia's Governor Ralph Northam who announced last week that a statue of Confederate general Robert E Lee would be removed from the state capital of Richmond. The Confederate State Army fought in the American Civil War to uphold slavery.
"In 2020, we can no longer honour a system that was based on enslaving people. That statue has been there a long time. But it was wrong then, and it's wrong now. So we're taking it down," Northam said.
One of the people in support of the statue coming down is Lee's great-nephew, Robert W Lee. He told The AM Show he wanted to acknowledge the "importance of what we are doing and the importance of this particular moment in the United States history and, indeed, the history of the world."
He said his family's feelings towards their link to the Confederate general was "complicated".
"The Lee family is indeed a big family if you consider everybody who thinks they are related or is related. It comes with a sense of pride for some people that they are related to this general," he said.
"But for me and many people that I am immediately associated with, it is an issue of duty to our country that we love, here in the United States to address some of these issues of statues and monuments.
"It is also an issue of calling and knowing people that we love who don't look like us, that don't sound like us. This is a very personal conversation and while it is a personal conversation, we also realise it has become a national and international conversation as well."
It's been reported a judge has issued an injunction halting the statue's removal for ten days. A lawsuit is set to be heard trying to stop the monument coming down on the grounds the state is a party to an 1890 deed in which Virginia promised to "faithfully guard" and "protect" the statue. The lawsuit was filed by William C. Gregory who is described as being a descendant of signatories to the deed.
Asked if he is embarrassed by his name, Lee recounted an experience recently that made him consider changing it.
"Just the other day I was at a gas station here in the United States and as I was putting fuel in the tank someone actually said to me 'oh you are related to him. The south will rise again', which is a euphemism for white supremacy and southern pride," he told The AM Show.
"It really bothered me and I thought 'gosh, well maybe I should change my name.' But I think the better way to look at that, the way I have tried to reframe it, perhaps when history is being written about this time, there will be a different footnote for a different Robert Lee, that I could have made a difference for the better instead of for the worse."
He said while there are contentious moments with his family, he was just as "committed to showing up as they are because the conversations need to be had".
"Of course, there is going to be disagreements in families, but the necessity now is actually for the Lee family to kinda get out of the way as much as possible and support the movement of this statue going away."
Lee has long denounced racism, including at the 2017 MTV Video Music Awards.
"We have made my ancestor an idol of white supremacy, racism and hate. As a pastor it is my moral duty to speak out against racism, America's original sin. Today, I call on all of us with privilege and power to answer God's call to confront racism and white supremacy head-on."
He resigned from his North Carolina church following those comments due to the intense attention they brought upon him and his congregation.
Generating a debate
The movement to bring down statues isn't isolated to the United States, but has reverberated across the globe.
New Zealand's Māori Party wants an inquiry to identify and remove colonial statues. Co-leader Debbie Ngarewa-Packer told MagicTalk people who have committed atrocities shouldn't be glorified. She acknowledged some people may not recognise the racism behind some monuments, but that doesn't mean they are right to have.
"It may not appear racist to some, but to those who it affects and to those whose history was most impacted, it does. It just simply does, and it's wrong and we should be part of that solution."
She doesn't want all statues to be brought down, but for a discussion of which statues no longer reflect who we are as a nation.
Sociologist Paul Spoonley told The AM Show it was a fascinating debate.
"I don't think there is a general call to bring down a lot of statues in New Zealand, but I think it is fantastic we are having the debate about which statues and why. We are just re-learning our history, we are engaging with our history," he said.
Spoonley referenced a debate in 2017 over a monument to Colonel Marmaduke Nixon, who led attacks on Maori in Waikato during the Waikato Wars. After a debate over whether to bring it down, it was decided not to remove the statue but instead look at ways to tell the full history of what happened.
Spoonley said the world is now seeing "a real moment".
"I would characterise it as the sorta second wave of the Civil Rights' Movement. We have been seeing growing inequality, we have been seeing politicians, particularly Trump who is dismissive and is really causing division in America, we have seen the anxiety that has been COVID-19. I think there has been a bit of anger there building up and statues are a sorta by-product of that," he said.
"We have got a lot to be proud of in this country. That doesn't mean that we then exclude the nasty and the negative stuff. There has been racism here, of course there is. I mean, racism is a failure of humanity. We have got to talk about that as well as the good stuff."
A statue of another key participant in the Waikato Wars, Captain Hamilton, found in the city of Hamilton, is set to be removed after a request from Waikato-Tainui.
